Anti-Zionist Jewish historian Ilan Pappe is one of the most prominent voices that documented and chronicled the ethnic cleansing in Palestine, and one of the academics who broke away early from the official Zionist narrative to a historical reading that sees 1948 as an open crime, not a finished event.
When you chat with Ilan Pappe about his personal itinerary, he tells you that he has a number of trips planned, and will conclude them with a trip to Palestine, which he makes sure to name whenever he refers to going to Haifa.
In this interview with Pappe links the Nakba of 1948 with the ongoing genocide in Gaza, and says that the expression “ongoing Nakba” has become more apparent since October 2023.
He believes that Israel is heading towards increasing isolation, and that liberal Zionism was not innocent of the Nakba, but rather it was the one that carried it out.
He also calls on Palestinians to reorganize their political house and build a unified vision, noting that younger Palestinian generations are more inclined towards a one-state solution, and expressing his belief that the future of Palestinian politics will not be built around Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or even the left.
Speaking about the Trump era and the rise of authoritarian leaders, Pappe believes that the world is living through a dangerous moment, but it is not the end of history, rather the end of a very bad chapter.
The following is the text of the dialogue:
What is different about the commemoration of the Nakba this year compared to all previous years?
The problem lies in the fact that we currently associate, in our minds, the 1948 Nakba with the genocide in Gaza. This makes the Palestinian expression “the Nakba continues,” not only through its commemoration this year, but since October 2023, all the more relevant and understandable.
We can see how the people of Gaza, 70 percent of whom are refugees or second or third generation refugees from 1948, are once again being stripped of their property and subjected to ethnic cleansing as happened to them in 1948. This highlights the fact that the chapter of the Nakba is not over.
Although many were aware of the issue before 2023, the last two and a half years strongly indicate that when you do not address the crime against humanity committed by Israel against the Palestinians in 1948, and when the world is silent or indifferent, the crime continues.
To ensure that this does not happen in the future, you have to go back to 1948. In other words, you have to correct what can be corrected of the mistake that happened in 1948 in order to build a different future today.
Today we link the Nakba of 1948 to the genocide in Gaza. This makes the Palestinian expression “the Nakba continues” more understandable.
Some argue that the current challenges facing Palestinians are more serious than those of 1948, especially under an Israeli government described as the most extreme and right-wing in its history, and that any future alternative may not be much better. Do you see these challenges as an insurmountable obstacle?
I think it's complicated. On one hand, you're absolutely right. The political elite are doing far worse than what happened in 1948, although we should never underestimate the expulsion of half a country's population and the destruction of half a country's villages. But it certainly doesn't compare to the total genocidal destruction we saw in Gaza.
So, it's an escalation in methods, not in ideology. It's the same idea: that Palestine should be as Jewish as possible, but the methods change over time.
In contrast, in 1948 there was no solidarity movement with the Palestinians. No one cared about what happened to the Palestinians in 1948.
Even after 1967?
After 1967, yes. But you can't say the same about the last two years. Millions of people have demonstrated, the boycott, divestment, and sanctions (BDS) movement has gained momentum, and governments, especially in the Global South, have suspended diplomatic relations with Israel. So, this is a very different reaction, though very frustrating, because it's a reaction from civil society, not from governments that hold power.
In a way, there is a certain continuity in the fact that the West, and especially Europe, which created the Zionist state, is unwilling to rein it in or rescue the Palestinians, whether in 1948 or today. On the other hand, the societies of these countries are far more aware of their complicity and of the responsibility of Western governments for what is happening.
Therefore, I am optimistic, not for the next two or three years, but I believe that we are now on a different path than we were in 1948. There was no opportunityThen comes a different question: how can this position be presented and effectively imposed on everyone, so that they say: This is the Palestinian position now. I believe this will change the dynamics of what is called the peace process or the process of finding a solution.
Even if you listen to the leaders of the Palestinian Authority, they say there's a need to reorganize the PLO and bring Hamas and Islamic Jihad into it. Frankly, I think the current factions won't be relevant in the future. I don't see the future of Palestinian politics being built around Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or even the left. The Palestinian youth civil society will create a different kind of political force. I can't imagine it, but that's the direction I'm heading.
A bad moment in history
We are living in what is known as the Trump era, and its effects are not limited to Palestine alone, but also include, for example, Iran, Lebanon, Europe, Ukraine, and the entire world. In your opinion, is Trumpism waning or advancing in the Middle East, in Palestine, and globally?
I am a historian, and for me, history is cyclical, not linear. We are at a bad moment in history. And Trump is not the only problem. We have problems with authoritarian politicians, and with politicians like Trump, who are self-serving and self-centered, and this gives the political elite in Israel immunity to continue their policies.
Israel is not part of the future, and if it continues with this ideology, Israelis will remain outside of history.
But I don't think this will last forever. One of the characteristics of politicians like Trump is their inability to deal with problems. So, a time will come when a different American administration will replace him. And perhaps the pattern of Western policy that grants Israel immunity will change.
Look at what happened in Hungary. Not that its new prime minister is pro-Palestinian, but he is no longer as pro-Israel as he once was. Not a radical change, but a change. And this will happen again.
Because Trump is violating international law and the international order, we are living through a highly volatile moment in human history. But humanity has experienced such moments before, overcome them, and tried to build a different world.
We need global cooperation for environmental, economic, and migration-related reasons. We cannot achieve this with the current system. Israel fits within this system, but it is not part of the future. This is the problem that Israelis fail to grasp. If they persist with this ideology, they will remain outside of history. Right now, they are fitting in with a world dominated by authoritarian leaders and military industries, but this is not the future. We must see this moment as the end of a very bad chapter.
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